108 vs 110 lobe separation

Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. And better gas mileage. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. Really wide lobe separation angles are used in boosted applications. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. . A cam with a 112lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110lobe center. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. We use 86b webcams with 1.25 rockers frequently in stroker motors.It's a nice way of getting close to .500" for hot street motors with average heads. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. Maybe even 114. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. by Kdub Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:20 am, Post These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? 108: 110: 112: 114 . 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. Bad idea in my view. As a result, you can enjoy a pleasing engine outcome. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. It really comes down to the application. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post I had a 110 cam in my beetle and I didn't like it-the bottom end was doggy. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms? Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 110* LSA - lobe separation angle (lobe displacement angle) The +2* means your intake lobe centerline is advanced to obtain a 108* ICL - intake centerline and a 112* ECL - exhaust centerline. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. THis is a real generalization, but the weaker your heads, the more you will like the smaller centers ( 106-108) the better the heads, and the higher the compression, the more it will like the wider centers ( 112-114)everything else falls somewhere in the middle( 108-110) Once you get close with the cam centerlines, it wont make much differance if you change it up or down by 2 degrees. When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. We'll send you raw engine tech articles, news, features, and videos every week from EngineLabs. Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. Idle vacuum showed a considerable spike to 14.7 in-Hg, likely the difference between being able to run power brakes and a mandatory leg workout. A commonly held misconception is that intake/exhaust overlap contributes to lower cranking compression. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. The Idles increasing vacuum improves the idle quality and the engines overall performance. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post by mrsmythe Wed May 14, 2003 2:26 am, Post My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. by trmnatr Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:45 pm, Post The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. somthing to that aspect. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. So, which is better? too much for the street? Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. . NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. 05 To ensure our stroker combo had sufficient airflow, we installed a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC-ported LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. I have Crane hydraulic link bar style roller lifters, so I dont have to use the spider style. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. Introduction. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. Chuck Lawrence of Jon Kaase Racing Engines was asked to give a 520ci BBF a Pro Stock sound, so he went with a 108 LSA in place of a more conventional 112 LSA. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? That is no accident. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. Thanks again. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. It a 355. thanks in advance. Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. 2023 Power Automedia. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. If the exhaust valve closes too early it will trap some of the spent gases in the combustion chamber, and if it closes too late it will over-scavenge the chamber and take out too much of the charge, again creating an artificially lean condition. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. LSA is a result of valve timing events. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage.