If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. @ Steve D: If this is so, its really astounding. As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. My husbands extended family are Calvinists, his lovely aunts family goes to a Reformed (Calvinist) church in an area considered a Bible Belt in Canada (these are very small geographic regions, unlike the US, where it spans states, it spans about a county), the church is large, evangelical and allows women in all church leadership positions. @ Daisy: System- & neat-little-box-free. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Im not trying to imply that you have never done the later. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. Feels your pain with you. I know. And yes, I said so on Dennys blog. . Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. They tend to become kings when in power too long. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? Im not always that good at explaining things well. And those who might still reject it, might also be rejecting it for the wrong reasons and miss out on some important wrestling that could help them grow. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! With the Internet, you never know. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. This is a false dichotomy. He said he found comfort from it. We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Based on my experience, the experience of Oasis both of us who have had very difficult childhood abuse experiences and other stories Ive been reading, especially of teens abandoning their faith, having emotional breakdowns and even suicide, why do we need to focus on Calvins system? This is an absolutely beautiful statement! My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. We are not monolithic. I honestly dont know.) And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. whats wrong with mess anyway? Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? Do you know how many people want to prove to me that they are correct? Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! Jacobus Arminius 21. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 - 12 January 1982) was a New Testament scholar and . The promises are over the top. Written by Daniel Isaiah Joseph in Charts. We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. Your voice is missing! We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. Bummer. I disagree. He started out not sure where he stood. which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. Not really thinking things though. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. (Putting it mildly!!!). This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. Thanks for the clarification. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). CALVIN! And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? The people you refer to are not hard-bitten Marxists or Dawkinsists; they ardently profess Christian faith and judge you in Jesus own name. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. I am sorry that you feel this way, because it does sound like you just want an open field assault on Calvinism and for Calvinists to hold their tongue. Alexander Maclaren 15. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. My Aunt-in-law is one of the best living examples of Christ I know, I dont find her obsessed with doctrine, but she completely loves her neighbour. It usually starts out with something like this. Thank you for helping me out. Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. It doesnt cause comfort, which might be expected, but revulsion because of the nature of evil. We are. No, not a few verses, and not Calvin, but what Scripture says consistently about election, predestination, Gods omniscience and omnipotence, Gods love, etc.? The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. So thankful to be free, now. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. We can just debate doctrine. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Ham- as a proof text for poor science. How to Resign from a Church We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. 2. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. (My experience, from childhood on.). Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? Lin wrote: If we cant really know the fundamentals, then, who are we to disagree with Calvinists on the secondaries? My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. With a long-dead Calvin as Cult Leader? I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. I am not the smartest person in the world and I know that what seems logical to me can, in fact, be wrong . And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. Sort of like reading Cliff Notes instead of the book. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Learn as I go, mistakes & big mess. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. Press J to jump to the feed. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. When people have been hurt by something they have come to realize was wrong, they will present their disagreements with fervor. . Weeps with you. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. (LogOut/ That should be enough to cause himto squirm. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. When a baby is born, mamas milk comes out as colostrum a very thick yellow substance perfectly designed to meet babies need exactly at the newborn stage of life. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. . Calvinism Jesse Morrell. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. For a village to be wiped out? He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. I have been given books and literature from Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism.